{"id":560,"date":"2026-07-09T13:38:50","date_gmt":"2026-07-09T13:38:50","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/atlaslivingmedia.com\/?p=560"},"modified":"2026-07-09T13:38:50","modified_gmt":"2026-07-09T13:38:50","slug":"wallace-shawn-reflects-on-his-art-in-the-age-of-antagonism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/atlaslivingmedia.com\/?p=560","title":{"rendered":"Wallace Shawn Reflects on His Art in the Age of Antagonism"},"content":{"rendered":"
\n

When we met late on a Wednesday afternoon at a bakery in Manhattan, as far as I could tell, Wallace Shawn wore the same black jeans he had worn just a few days earlier at the last performance of his recent run of his one-man play, The Fever<\/em>. As our conversation was wrapping up, waitstaff swept around us to prepare for closing, just like the scene at the end of Shawn\u2019s 1981 film My Dinner With Andr\u00e9<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Read more The Higher Education Revolution We Need to Have<\/a><\/p>\n

Wallace Shawn\u2019s latest ensemble play, his first in a decade, What We Did Before Our Moth Days<\/em>, touches on the porousness between life and art in the lives and work of writers. Or at least for Dick, a well-regarded, prestigious novelist played with a slithering na\u00efvet\u00e9 by Josh Hamilton. Dick is the first to admit that he owes his career to the interest and devotion of high school sweetheart and mother to his child Elle (a devastating Maria Dizzia). Nonetheless, he embarks on an affair with a more mainstream thriller writer named Elaine (Hope Davis). For Elle, after the revelation of the affair, life with Dick \u201cbecame a horrible kind of love, it became a distasteful kind of love.\u201d All four characters speak directly to the audience, with the exception of one brief scene between Tim (John Early)\u2014Dick and Elle\u2019s troubled son\u2014and Elaine.<\/p>\n

Not long into the play, Dick tells us that \u201cMoth Day\u201d is a phrase he coined for the day a person dies. But only later do we understand the full significance of the title: Eventually, we realize that all four characters onstage are dead, telling the stories of their lives from beyond the grave.<\/p>\n

The experience of slowly understanding these characters\u2019 deaths as they share their often warped narratives of how they lived creates a strange and special intimacy between these performers, the characters, and the audience. But the monologue Shawn performs in The Fever<\/em> captures a bourgeois man\u2019s coming into political consciousness while in the midst of a horrible illness caught during a visit to a country in a revolution. Considered alongside The Fever<\/em>, Moth Days<\/em> deepens one\u2019s understanding of Shawn\u2019s body of work as an anti-colonial playwright and thinker in the vein of Bertolt Brecht, Harold Pinter, Caryl Churchill, and Lorraine Hansberry. As in the work of these other playwrights, one of Shawn\u2019s enduring motifs from play to play is how a person\u2019s politics take root in a family, and how a person might come to resist the beliefs of their origins. Ever the genealogical thinker, Shawn with his latest work brings his shrewd depictions of a literate, elite, often complacent Western collective unconscious to a play that resembles a family drama.<\/p>\n

The Nation<\/em> spoke to Shawn about The Fever<\/em>, What We Did Before Our Moth Days<\/em>, and the renewed political meaning latent in his work.<\/p>\n

\u2014Elaine Schiff\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n

Elaine Schiff: <\/em><\/span> It\u2019s Wednesday, May 27. The play closed on Sunday May 24. This is the first interview you\u2019ve done since closing. How are you feeling about the run?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Wallce Shawn: <\/em><\/span><\/strong>The run was an extraordinary high point in my life. The sort of thing that you cannot expect would ever happen. But somehow the four actors, Andr\u00e9, and the script were a uniquely perfect combination. It\u2019s almost too delicate to talk about.<\/p>\n

The script itself is kind of ancient history to me. When I see the play, the script is so far away. I\u2019m looking at the characters these people have created. Basically, when I go to the play, I\u2019m going to see people that I have a deep love for. I mean, the theater is a very easy form of living. You don\u2019t have to participate, really, if you\u2019re in the audience. The relationship that you have is not reciprocal. So I go and watch the people I am so drawn to. I don\u2019t have to interact with them. I just stare at them. It\u2019s, I suppose, the way a baby looks at his mother. Nothing is asked of me. I can just sit in a trance and stare at these beautiful people.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s a long journey to get there from the point of trying to remember myself writing the play. Somehow, there\u2019s a tranquility that\u2019s been achieved because of everybody\u2019s relationship with everybody, so that there\u2019s a kind of peaceful space around the play. I\u2019m not remembering, you know, as can be the case, moments of pain and struggle in the rehearsal process. As a writer, it\u2019s possible to feel, well, \u201cJoe never really got that line.\u201d Or, \u201cI wish it could have been more like this or more like that.\u201d<\/p>\n

I mean, I don\u2019t usually feel that [way] in any play that I\u2019ve done. But sometimes one does. Whereas in this [play,] I\u2019m not thinking that.<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> That\u2019s beautiful.<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS: <\/em><\/span><\/strong> So now, you know, it would be great to do the play in other places, to do it again. There are all sorts of possibilities. Of not totally saying goodbye to it.<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> I noticed that on Sunday, a week ago, when I saw Moth Days<\/em> and then The Fever <\/em>back-to-back, that the plays share a reckoning with the theme of inevitability, or a theme of a kind of predeterminism. What do you think about inevitability at this moment in time? In your life?<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS: <\/em><\/span><\/strong> I don\u2019t know if anybody can really believe about himself or herself that what I do is completely determined. You can believe it about everybody else! But I don\u2019t even know what words you would use to refute your own sense that you\u2019re making decisions. I don\u2019t even know how you would describe that.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s easy to say, after the fact, that the specific decision that you made was inevitable. You couldn\u2019t possibly have made a different decision. But that\u2019s not how my brain anyway presents my life to me. My life seems to be presented as a multiple-choice questionnaire. And going forward, I have the feeling that I have a self, or I am a self, and I\u2019m making these decisions.<\/p>\n

And certainly if you watch, let\u2019s say, the behavior of a bird, they seem to be making an awful lot of decisions. You don\u2019t know what the motivation is. But you see the bird flies from one branch to another branch and all of a sudden leaps off the tree, then lands on your windowsill very far away. It seems the bird is making these decisions. Although after the fact, if you knew enough, maybe you could explain them, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Well, maybe, certainly one of the key sentences is when the speaker [of The <\/em>Fever] says, \u201cOf course it could have been predicted from knowing the things in this book [of my life]: where I was born, how I was raised, what an hour of my labor would probably be worth today, even though to me, from the inside, my life always felt like a story that was just unfolding in which nothing could have been predicted.\u201d<\/p>\n

And you know, [in Moth Days,<\/em>] Elle, whatever was happening in her private life, she continued to teach. She resisted her husband\u2019s suggestion that it was too hard and that she should quit. And she was a dedicated teacher for her whole life. And so, what she did before her \u201cMoth Day\u201d was quite wonderful. I think for me that\u2019s an important point in the play. Because, you know, what she did was valuable and and great!<\/p>\n

Read more Pedro S\u00e1nchez Is Living on Borrowed Time<\/a><\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> How did you decide, \u201cI\u2019m going to do a run of The Fever.<\/em>\u201d Was that always part of [the plan for Moth Days<\/em>]?<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS: <\/em><\/span><\/strong> No, that was Scott Rudin\u2019s idea.<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> Were you resistant?<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS: <\/em><\/span><\/strong> Oh, no. I was thrilled! There was no persuading necessary. For me, it\u2019s very gratifying to, you know, make my attempt to contribute something to the possible political conversation.<\/p>\n

In some ways, it\u2019s more interesting than it was 35 years ago. I mean, there were very few people 35 years ago who would openly defend sadistic projects. Now our country is run by people who really believe in crushing the poor and killing them, hurting them. People who believe in cruelty. So it\u2019s more interesting to be doing it.<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> On Sunday and in January, my sense in those rooms is that it was a quite receptive audience.<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS:<\/strong> <\/em>No comparison. I mean, that part I don\u2019t get fully. I don\u2019t understand people\u2019s responses. An enormous number of people came up to me after each performance and said, \u201cThank you for doing that.\u201d Nobody said that 35 years ago!<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> The gulf between the ideas of the theatergoing audience in the nineties, the theatergoing audience of today, and the ideas of the play might be closer.<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS:<\/em> <\/strong>Yeah. I mean, I think in the \u201990s, and also in the institutional theaters that I performed this in, a lot of people in the audience would have been\u2026 very politically moderate people, who would have thought that American intentions were benign. But maybe execution fell short.<\/p>\n

Let\u2019s say this: I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve ever read Harold Pinter\u2019s Nobel speech.<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> It\u2019s amazing. Absolutely.<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS: <\/em><\/span><\/strong> Harold Pinter\u2026 I mean I always find it amazing that he was given a Nobel Prize in Literature, and\u2026 instead of talking about literature, he talked about the menace of this particular country, that the United States was really the enemy of humanity in some terribly extraordinary way.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s certainly never been more true than at this very moment that, you know, the United States is the most powerful country, but people have always counted on it to behave with some restraint. And now, it\u2019s led by a man who is threatening to use that power in any way that strikes him on any given day, which is terrifying.<\/p>\n

And The Fever <\/em>is basically saying, well, you know, the elite that I happen to be a part of, whether you want to call it an American elite or a Western-European-American-Canadian elite, well, [it] has gone much too far already\u2026<\/p>\n

ES: <\/em><\/span> What is the role of the playwright, to you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

WS: <\/em><\/span><\/strong> Oh. Well I wasn\u2019t thinking about that when I started. When I was I guess 24, maybe 23, I wrote an actual play. And I thought something I\u2019d never thought before, which is: I have an ability. I can do something. And not only that, I thought: This is a great play. And I want to spend my life writing plays. [But] that\u2019s not the role of the playwright; that\u2019s just a guy who would like to do something that he thinks he can do\u2026<\/p>\n

I spent many many years [getting] people interested in putting on one of my plays and I didn\u2019t get anywhere. So I didn\u2019t have a role. My role was not as a playwright but as an unsuccessful playwright. Then, Andr\u00e9 took me up, you might say.<\/p>\n

Then I went to England, and there\u2026the concept of the role of the playwright was very real. The people I met, they were socialists! Did I know what that word meant? I had no idea. I really didn\u2019t know. I mean I studied history, and I knew that there were people called socialists, but somehow, I didn\u2019t know what that meant. But in their mind, the role of the playwright was to chronicle the actual world as it existed. And to show the truth about the world. And get the word out. And eventually lead to a better society. That was the role of the playwright.<\/p>\n

And then, when my first play was done over there, A Thought in Three Parts<\/em>\u2026 they have a lot of newspapers. About 18 bad reviews. Many of them worse than bad. Then on the weekend I got a couple of good ones. But that was\u2014I mean I think the play opened on a Monday. So I had some bad days with no good reviews. And Hare, Caryl Churchill, Howard Brenton, and Barrie Keefe wrote a letter to The Guardian<\/em> in praise of my plays, and in denunciation of the critics.<\/p>\n

So, all of a sudden, I had a role. The role of the playwright at that point was kind of, uh\u2026 I was just writing what I wanted to write, but by the end of that week, I was a rebel against established society, or something of that nature! I mean if everybody had found A Thought in Three Parts <\/em>delightful, then I would have been delighting an audience. But my role, apparently, was as a disrupter of the audience.<\/p>\n

Read more The Higher Education Revolution We Need to Have<\/a><\/p>\n<\/article>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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